ok,i have had 2 silver aros in the past,and both ended up getting droop eye,drop eye,popeye,what ever,depending on who you talk to.and depending on the person,they have some pretty interesting theorys on how it comes to be.any thing from diet,like too much fay,on guys said too much protien,one said its becase it was in w/ a cat fish,and it was looking at the cat fish,one said it was a tumor.so,any suggestions as to how to prevent it,as i am getting another soon,aand would like to avoid it if pssable.oh,and they both only got it in one eye. suggestions please.

Although fatty diet will can cause it, most people actually believe that it has something to do with genetics of the fish, and being inbred. A possible way to get one without it is getting a wild caught silver aro, although this may be a tricky task.

I do know that some people have cured it by putting the fish in a pond or a tank and covering up the sides so only the top shows.

i see, i have also heard the genetics theory,forgot to mention that.i was mostly feding the last one i had shrimp,and krill,and some pellets.oh,and when ever we had fresh fish for dinner, he would get a small chunk of that aswell.is that too much fat?

Drop eye is a very common occurance with Silvers kept in captivity today. Most will develop it in at least one eye at around 12". My 23" one had it in one eye and he was fed the very best of diets. I believe that it has to do with the fact that Silver Aros are now being mass produced on farms. This obviously will lower the gene pool which could lead to a genetic predisposition towards the condition. Drop eye is still only common with Silvers and some color morphs of Asians, which are both massively captive bred. Jardini Aros are also now being bred on farms, so in time they will also probably develop the condition.

Quote from Jon aka RARE AFISHINADO:

thats a good post and i agree my green is a perfect old school asian aro shape.
its mouth is a perfect fit and its head is flat with a gentle slope down from its back.
it also has perfect pectorals and the only bad feature is its tail but that is from a jump and the healing process.
i do beleive it is due to the inbreeding that occurs with these fish.
dixon

i definitely agree with the genetics theory; i'm not looking forward to mine getting it, but we'll see when the time comes.

mel, when did your silver start to show the signs? what size/age? widepud? --
--solomon

About 12"

I was just thinking as I was reading this how cool it'd be to get some W/C silvers and start a new breeding program so I can have F1's to sell to the masses.

wow, 12"??? i dont think thats too far off for my silver

haha, rich, let me know if you get any W/C's i have a buddy who must have gotten one a while back, because his silver is huge, has some great colors, but no signs of drop eye at all. maybe ill just get a silver from that LFS at some point--
--solomon

ps--do you guys still have the silver that had the drop eye? if not, what happened to it?

The big guy was killed by a proch, sucked his slimecoat off and left him for dead. Our current silver is about 14" and has drop eye in one eye. I don't know that even if it was a W/C it wouldn't have developed, the fish has been blind in one eye all its life and swam crooked at a young age......it swims damn near perfectly now.

mine got it around 10"-11" very slightly,then at 12" it was pretty bad.i no longer have mine, i sold it to make room for the last 2 snakeheads i got,so they wouldnt kill it,and i got a good offer for it,so it made it pretty easy.

Ok I have a beautiful silver aro that is practically pink and id love to prevent drop eye!! How do we go about doing this??

How large is it? Most juveniles have a reddish coloration that fades with age. Some juvies even have tiger striping on their fins.

As we've already said in this discussion, there really is no failsafe way of preventing drop eye in captive raised Silver Arowanas because of the fact that they seem to have a genetic predisposition, which makes it easier for them to get it. What brings it on is looking out of the tank at its surroundings. If you notice, most Silvers only get it in one eye...the eye they use to look outside of the tank with. The only way to prevent it is keeping the fish in a pond.

I actually have a W/C silver (or said to be, it flew in from where it should come from)

Its about 14" now and there are no signs of droop eye whatsoever. I'll keep you guys posted on if it gets it, as there is still alot of time for it to happen.

I don't think it has anything to do with looking out of the tank though, fish dont have only one eye they look out of the tank at people with, as they have to turn around (i know i understood you wrong, so please more info )

Look at how your Arowana cruises the tank. My guys all only use one eye to look out with. They will take one lap looking out, and one lap looking up (with the other eye). The eye they use to look out is the one that will get the drop eye.

I thought that if you keep to floating foods, you can sometimes avoid the drop eye in an arrowana. It's when a person keeps feeding sinking foods that the drop eye eventually develops.

Most of the time it's totally unavoidable, just bad genes.

I have had my silver since it was about 1.5", it has always had a good diet and it started developing it ay around 11", it sucks, I hate how it looks, I have thought about trading it in before but I hate doing that too.

I agree that it is inbreeding.

Yup, because if it wasn't mass inbreeding, then most Blacks and Jardinis would get it too. As of now, the only types that get it a lot are Silvers and the rarer color morphs of Asians (the ones that are heavily inbred for specific color traits). I remember hearing that Jardinis are now being captive bred on farms and are no longer being exported from their native habitiat, so I'm sure in time they will develop the condition just like Silvers.

Do any of our community sponsors sell F0 or F1 Silver Aros? I'd pay at the most 50% more for an established WC arowana that has a good chance of NOT developing droop-eye. It's just so sad seeing these magnificent fish that are forever looking down .

Not to my knowledge.

Alright guys, I'm going to pin this thread as there have been a lot of questions regarding this issue lately. This is a very informative thread.

As a recap, my take on drop-eye is that it's a condition found in captive-raised Silvers and some color morphs of Asians. Both are heavily bred on farms, which leads to a lowered gene pool lacking in infusions of new blood. This can lead to a genetic predisposition to the condition. The fish is not born with it, but will more often than not develop it in at least one eye at around 12" in length, sometimes later, sometimes earlier. The eye that develops the droop is most likely the eye that the Arowana uses to look outside the tank. If you watch an Aro cruising about, you will see that they take one lap looking up and one lap looking out. The eye that looks out is usually the eye that gets "dropped." Obviously keeping an Arowana in a pond setting can usually prevent this from even happening because there really isn't any place for the Aro to look but up. Remember, a raised genetic predisposition doesn't mean that the fish will get it regardless of surroundings...just that it has higher chances of getting it than wild caught fish.

If anyone would like to question the theory on genetic predispositions, think about this: why is it that a Jardini or Black kept in the same exact conditions on the same exact diet will never develop drop-eye yet a captive-bred Silver (99% of Silvers kept by hobbyists today) will? Jardinis are now being farm raised but haven't been for nearly as long as Silvers have. In time, they most likely will develop genetic problems as well.

Drop-eye will not harm your Arowana and it the eye most certainly will not fall out. So please, don't butcher your fish by trying to cut apart the eye!

I have serious doubts that mass breeding is the primary cause of dropeye in silvers. My two silvers were imported from South America and were perfect up to about 18" TL, but then both developed mild cases.

My guess is that it is the environment of an aquarium, especially one with bright lighting, that is the trigger for the dropeye. As a number of people have suggested, putting the fish into a larger pond or river might avoid this.

This is not to say that diet and genetics are insignificant, but that only blaming breeding practices has not played out for me.

That would make sense if Blacks and Jars got the condition as well, but since they don't, mass breeding on farms is the most sensible theory.

I agree with you on the blacks, but don't understand how you are pulling the jardinis into this. Silvers and blacks are Osteoglossums from South America and jardinis are Scleropages from Australia. Just because they share a common name does not mean they are similar enough to draw conclusions from.

So far, I am the only person posting any results on sub-adult or adult fish imported from South America. I would be interested in hearing from anyone else with 24" or larger fish that are wild caught. Seanthefish, are you still out there -- how is your silver doing now that it is larger?

I would also be interested in hearing any real scientific data on this.

Every one of the silvers I have kept have circled the tank most often in a counterclockwise direction and have developed dropeye in their left eye. Have any of you noticed the same thing?

Has anyone tried covering their aquariums with that one way mirror tint and raising a silver like that?

Jardinis are mentioned because they are Scleropages just like Asians. Therefore we have Silvers and Asians develop drop even while Blacks and Jardinis have not so far. It is actually good to bring the Jardinis and even the Leichardtis into this because you get to compare each drop-eye prone arowana with another member of its direct genus.

Ivan

I have 3 wild caught Peruvian Silvers that I have grown out from 200 babies with yolksacs. I sold a lot, some took the jump.
I have not seen any signs of dropeye. The 3 I have are now about 22", 2 seem to have paired up and are kept in a 125 tank by themselves with a 14" royal panaque and 2 12" L14 as part of a 3500 gallon central system (for my rays) . I change about 75% of the water every 3 days. All tests are always at zero. pH fluctuates between 6 and 7

Different species will have different reactions to not so good water quality and to changes of diet and individuals may also react differently. Some will be ok after an ammonia or nitrites spike, others will be damaged in some way.
I can;t help thinking that a lot of problems like these are caused by inadequate water quality.
Any fish from the Amazon comes from the purest softest water imaginable,
It is sometimes amazing to me that any of them survive to grow at all in aquariums, given the water and food differences between where they come from and the tanks they find themselves in.
Diet may be a factor. perhaps a lack of certain vitamins or amino acids? A varied diet is always recomended for any fish, altho my arrows mostly get whatever is the cheapest floating food I can find, usually Koi sticks...and some fresh shrimp leftovers sometimes when the rays don;t get to it.

imo if dropeye were a genetic problem it would more likely develop early, soon after losing the yolksac, not as a subadult. For other species ( like Discus) it takes multiple generations of close inbreeding before recessive flaws ( like eyesight) show up. I really don;t believe that being in a pool vs being in a glass tank makes any difference

Popeye is a bacterial problem caused by bad water quality from insufficient water changes and sludged up filters.


IMO, to prevent this, change more water more often and don;t keep a potential 5-6 foot long fish in a small tank

If it's a bacterial problem then why is it only Silvers and higher bred morphs of Asians that get it? I keep all my fish in the same water conditions, with Stingrays, and none of my other species of Aros have gotten it except the Silvers.

different resistance, aquired and inherited, to disease in different species and individuals?

i believe all these factors play a part in drop eye and not just one of them.
genes,tank looking down, bad diet, water quality,
if anyone says they can cure this some way or another, then i'ld like to see some proof such as posting up a pic of an adult arowana about 3ft long with shots of both its eyes, then i might just believe that a tank raised aro can possibly be kept without having dropeye

here is what i know about drop eye....for what its worth...
Fatty deposits develop behind the eye pushing it out and down...usually from an improper diet, people feeding there arowanas live fish will have arowanas with drop eye. These fish loo up to feed, so keep feeding your arowana food that does not sink and is not too fatty, like crickets and meal worms...the BEST food for any arowana is freeze dried krill(for color) and freeze dried plankton for staple...In arizona, i throw in a couple of fence lizards when i find them, they love them, but do not over do it, too much fat...these fish could go for days, even weeks without being fed in the wild, so take that into comcideration when feeding...
To correct drop eye, and it can be done!!! Drop water level so fish can only look up, put tank on floor..water level should be only enough to cover the fish...drop some golf balls in the tank to give him something to look at, some old guy told me that one, slow the feeding down to once a week, after about 4-6 MONTHS with proper diet, it will go away, spoken from experience.....i had 5 silvers with drop eye and cured EVERYONE of them!!!!

all good when u say feed less and stuff, but i also heard someone curing drop eye by puutting fish in pond. so without a doubt it can be cured if u put fish in pond or in low level water like u said put on ground, however when u put fish back in normal tank height then it somehow returns to drop eye.

so i think main reason is a tank make aro look down as well. i wouldnt have an aro on the ground, it defeats the purpose of having a nice fish to look at in a beutifull display tank

99.9% of Silvers kept in glass tanks will develop drop eye in at least one eye regardless of diet. I've never fed mine live and feed the best of diets yet every single Silver has developed it. Blacks and Jars kept on the same diet and in the same conditions will not develop it. Why? The only answer that makes sense is the abundant inbreeding caused by mass production on farms. That's why the condition is very common in certain morphs of Asians and in Silvers but not at all in Jars and Blacks.

IT ALL COMES DOWN TO SPACE AND DIET.....AND OF COURSE WATER QUALITY

I have been lurking on this board for some time, and have seen this topic and I wanted to just voice my OPINION (sorry, rather long!):

Drop Eye due to inbreeding and/or diet/fatty deposits are very good guesses, but still just hypothesis. There is no scientific data supporting these assumptions.

I'm not saying these are not the causes because, through future research, they may indeed have something to do with the drop eye problem.

There are so many other things to take into consideration. Water parameters (native vs. foreign, including differences between cities!), natural environment (housing), and more importantly, how certain fish behave and/or react in different conditions. Most species of animals have the ability to adapt when given like conditions, but who is to know if a species truly does adapt 100 percent?

Inbreeding and fatty deposits most likely does not help the drop eye problem, but my guess as to the main cause of drop eye is behavioral adaptation. This will differ greatly between species, as well as individual fish.

Water levels in the amazon can change literally overnight, to where branches of trees that seemed to reach the sky are now below water lever because of heavy rains. Silvers are known to snatch birds and even small monkeys that were once high above the river. These fish are constantly looking above to the point that it becomes trained. If this natural behavior is stymied somehow (taking the fish out of its environment), then it loses the "trained" behavior. I believe in silvers particularly, the eye muscles just do not adjust properly and are weakened over time.

Before anyone brings up "what about the other species?"

I don't think African aro's or leichardti's should be brought into this discussion. Their captive numbers are so low that you cannot even really comment or hypothesize. So...

Who said it was fact that black aro's do not get drop eye? I have seen black aros with drop eye, generally larger adults. Maybe they do not get them as early as silvers, but I am sure that they can get drop eye.

I have also seen jardini's with drop eye. Again, larger and older adults. Yes, it is true that many jardini's or blacks that you have seen do not seem to get them, but you do not know if they will never get them. Does anyone really have a survey to who has had these fish for quite some time? (A colleague has my "old" 10+ jardini). Anyone else have 8 + year old fish? And how many people are there that do? Can you make a fair assessment of drop eye/no drop eye with this small number?

Like I said, IMO, I believe it is a problem with silvers, particularly with their eyes inability to adapt to the new environment. I have not seen silvers that did not get at least a slight degree of drop eye over time. This is true of both silvers from asia as well as wild caught from South America (yes, plenty of silver aros that are imported still come from South America). Maybe its bicirrhosum eye muscles, maybe silvers develop it alot sooner because they mature faster and/or get larger faster...who knows. At least we all agree that something is definately different about the silver aro's.

If you bring up the "why don't other species (ie blacks) with similar environmental conditions / diet get drop eye," you are just making huge assumptions. You don't know that they will or will not get drop eye unless there is long range scientific study with large numbers of fish. And more importantly, they are DIFFERENT (ferreirai vs. bicirrhosum)!

As far as Asian Aro's:

quote:"...back in the day asians had flat heads. people who are old school know what i mean. nowadays they have more or a spoonhead even crossbacks?"

"chilli red with spoonhead as a defect that is natural and some rtg have natural spoonhead as well but xback and green should NEVER have a spoon." end quote


I guess I'm considered one of those "old-schoolers" as I have been keeping fish for quite some time and have seen my share of arowanas.

The majority of crossbacks do not have spoonheads, but I wouldn't say they "never" had spoonheads. There were xbacks that had spoonheads many years ago.

People have to remember that the amount of fish seen today has far surpassed the numbers in the "days of old." How many asian arowanas do you recall seeing 15 - 20 (even 10) years ago? And what about adult fish? Not even many pictures. Nowadays, aros (as well as plenty of other fish) are fairly abundant. (Hell, cichlids like dovii and splendida were rare back then!) Pictures are also readily available via the internet. Unless you have raised and seen large numbers of these fish, it isn't really good to make blanket statements (if you're wondering, I'm originally from so. east asia, so yes, I have seen plenty of these fish, and plenty yearrrss ago). Has anyone known or even spoken with any of the fish farmers? Have you even visited a fish farm?

True, asian aro's can get drop eye also. But they developed it years ago also. Its not just happening now. It just seems more evident now because more people have access to them, whether they own them or have seen lots of pictures from books and the internet (both of which were not abundant before). There were also xbacks with slight spoonheads. "King" aro's? Conjoined aro's? Yep.

In conclusion, I want to re-iterate that I am not saying that inbreeding / fatty deposits does not play a role in drop eye. It just may not be the sole culprit. The point is that unless there is scientific data, it shouldn't be taken as fact. Please keep an open mind!

i know a site that might cure drop eye and this aro was an australian too.

http://www.geocities.com/hmongtou/arowanadropeyebulgingeye

just reading this thread....and wondering if drop eye causes any pain or discomfort to an Aro???



thanks

Dan

ive heard that the eye sometimes falls out

That is completely untrue, unless it's an infection of the eye which is something entirely different.

Drop eye doesn't seem to affect the fish's behavior at all from what I've seen.

Just my two cents.
drop-eye as it may be commonly referred to has not been determined to be due to "inbreeding". I am not saying that this is not the cause, it just has not been determined. While I was working at a large public aquarium, much of the blame was put on mycobacteria. This could be one of the reasons why it is seen in larger, older fish. Myco may not effect a young fish because a) they are not big waste producers yet b)rthey have not been subjected to improper diet for a long time, c)they have not outgrown their enclosures yet.

Myco is common in many fish, however these fish do not "give in" until many stressors are imparted into the fish.

How many people are feeding a heavy diet of insects to their animals. This is one of the primary diets of wild Osteoglossids. How many people keep their animals in a very acidic environment such as pH in the 4's. While i was working in Brazil in the Rio Negro, where these animals were seen we have had pH recorded in the high 3's.

Myco is NOT curable, but it is able to be contained by giving our animals the best quality food, water quality, enclosure size, and conspecifics.

Someone told me that "droopeye" is from having bright lights over the tank and also from being in a bare bottom. Makes sence, ive never tried it to prove the theory.

As far as I know , it is quite common in south American spieces .

As for Asian Arowana , I seldom see them having drop eye .

Actually of the SA species it is only common in Silvers, not Blacks. This is due to the fact that Silvers are being inbred on farms in Asia with shallow gene pools and Blacks are still being wild caught with stong genetics.

In Asians it is quite common amongst Reds and Crossbacks. This is due to selective breeding for color/shape. Types like greens, etc are not being so heavily inbred, this obviously is due to the fact that no farms are trying to get crazy colors from them and they're merely trying to propogate them with the purpose of creating more.

I can tell you for sure that this is incorrect. I don't keep my lights on very much and they aren't so bright. I also had dropeye occur with Silvers kept in tanks with gravel, black sand, and barebottom - also with and without plants and driftwood.

i cant stand droop eye its one of the reasons i got my jardini instead of a silver

I know this is old... but can someone post a pic of bad drop eye, and another without it, please?

According to breeders of asian arowanas, droop eye is common in all captive arowanas. The cause is fatty foods, and lack of exercise. To prevent this you must create a current in the tank in order for the arowana to swim against. Like in nature, swimming against the current exerts effort thus burning the energy it accumilate from the fatty food it consumes. Like a treadmill effect of some sort. Adding current or increasing the existing current flow is recommended. A tank with no current is just like a person chilling on a couch. Hope this helps. I am not aware of a cure for droop eye.

Asi

ive heard thats its the fish itself popping the eye out of place(dislocating it) i heard my lfs talk about it.